Love.

[snitchnipped]

I'm having some thoughts while I sit here with a glass of cheap wine, waiting for the chicken to come out of the oven... I'm coming across this subject again somewhat as I write a sequel to Dichotomy, and would love to hear peoples' thoughts.

First off, I'm reminded of a conversation several months back on rthstewart's LJ, which can be found somewhere in this mess:

http://rthstewart.livejournal.com/49645.html#comments

It was a discussion on love and relationships in and out of Narnia, and at one point, dives into who is a OTP and who isn't, and whether those exist in real life as much they do in the fandom world.  I so, so, so, so wanted to contribute more in this conversation at the time, but I was A) still under my anonymous "Indil" alias, and most importantly, B) had JUST written a few lines in Dichotomy that sort of brings this up.  I had to bite my tongue instead of giving my thoughts on the matter at the time so as not to spoil my NFE contribution.  Anyway, I wrote these two lines in all seriousness, but kept it light so as not to get all angsty and such:

"Oh, come off it, it's still not what you think," Peter interrupted, becoming frustrated. "I'm just saying what if this was the girl for me, or it could be any other girl I have yet to meet.  What if I come across 'The One' as Susan and Lucy would call it, the one they say would make my life complete. Or something," he added. He was obviously uncomfortable saying such things.

And:

"So, what's to come? I finish things up at Exeter, save up some money, maybe stay at Oxford and pursue a Masters of Letters. And, why not, let's bring the girl back into the picture!" Peter rambled, waving a hand in the air. "Let's say I meet 'The One,' or whatever nonsense that is about, we get married, find the perfect country estate to build a family..." Peter trailed off.

OK, let's cut to the chase here... C.S. Lewis gave the Pevensies, and pretty much everyone else save for the select few, the short end of the stick in the love and marriage department.  Nothing new here, this has been discussed quite a bit, along with his views on women and such.  He seemed pretty clueless in the love department himself until he found himself in a OTP of his own.  (The same thing happened with his religious views... well, we can at least say he was always open to new ideas.)

So, that's where my thoughts are these days with writing... to OTP or not to OTP.  Lewis, in his ommitance, left the door wide open for pretty much anything and everything, including relationships of any sort, be they romantic or not.  In the aforementioned thread, some expressed that OTP in real life is not very common, but it's written about extensively.  I agree that it's not common in the real world, but do I believe it exists?  Yes, I do.  Are people interested in reading about it?  I honestly don't know.  OTPness can be quite predictable, and, well, boring.  It's done well so rarely. 

Right now, I'm quite torn.  Though my next story so far really has nothing to do with romance in the grand scheme of things, I can't avoid it all together.  Love happens, and I'm sorry, Mr. Lewis, it had to have happened to at least one the Pevensies at some point.  In my "canon", it happens to Susan.   I'm debating on whether it happens to her *twice*, though, and that's where I'm stuck.  Because as much as I love, adore, have identified with Susan and her abundance of logicness, it's keeping me from believing that she's capable of replacing one love when another is forever-gone. 

"Oh, come on, snitchnipper," you might say.  "Get real here.  People fall in and out of love all the time, and it's even possible to love more than one person at a time."

I am aware of all of this, and I trust and honestly believe that this is possible.  But with my specific personality type, it's just not possible -- or it hasn't happened to me personally in my XX years.  And because I chose to make Susan's personality almost like my own (pssh, Susan's got her shit together waaaaay more than I ever could), it's hard for me to write this, even though it'll make a good story. 

I mean, let's face it, the Pevensies leaving Narnia that first time?  There's NO happy ending there.  At all.  Impossible.  The entire Narnian nation did not sigh in relief and say, "Thank Aslan they're GONE already!" And because of that, absolutely zero happy romantic story for any of the Pevensies, as explored in such examples as Edmund & Morgan in rthstewart's saga, or recently, as lady_songsmith wrote in the NFE she wrote about Peridan and Susan.  (sob)

And on TOP of it all, Lewis went and killed nearly everyone in a train wreck before the vast majority of them were even adults, thus denything them AGAIN.  Except Susan.  The girl I have a problem giving two possible "great loves" above any of the others (save for Edmund... I have a hard time doing that to him, but have no interest in it either).  The one person who could have a happy OTP in England, and I just can't give it to her in good conscious, because what if the true OTP actually was in Narnia? I wouldn't want the second one to be a poor substitute.  I hint that Peter may have finally found something in England, but honestly, haven't given it much thought on whether it comes to fruition or not.  Regardless, and I hate to spoil you, but IT DOES NOT END HAPPILY.  HE DIES. 

And one of the the main reasons why I don't want to touch this OTPness is because I don't want it to fall into a cheesy OTP trope trap.  It easily could, if I choose to write a third thing that also takes place in England (which already has a couple of bits written, actually, but no guarantee of ever seeing the light of internet).  Susan deserves a happy ending, after all, but I don't want it to take away from the awesomeness I'm thinking about her (doomed) romantic potential in Narnia. 

I could go on, but I'd love to hear what other people think...even though I really didn't put a question out there.  What do you like in happy endings?  What do you like about doomed relationships? 



And now my chicken is out of the oven and is rested, so now it's time for a very late dinner.  Thank you all, and bon appetit. 

Comments

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Edited to reflect after coffee:
A very late dinner indeed!! As I think I've said before, I don't really do OTPs even if I am uncomfortable with replacing one serious relationship with another. But, as you say, in real life, relationships can be very, very important and not be OTPs and not end in marriage. That's not to say that I could not, but that 17 years of fan fic and 1.5 million words, I haven't replaced even a serious relationship with another one. I've not been interested in the "moving on" story.

I do think you get over the romance trope worries. There's lots of bad romance in this verse and everywhere else and that same fear held me back a long time. But, as I've written Edmund and Morgan, Mary and Richard (OCs no less), Peter and Dalia (and oh gawd even Peter and Mary) I've been SHOCKED to discover that even readers who don't like romance (or at least not in their Narnia fic) will read it and enjoy it if they like the writing and characterizations. So, junk the fear of going the same way as everyone else. Yeah, you will be to a point waltzing down the romance trope but you also aren't at all because it's you writing it which means it will be terrific.

Onward, I loved your exploration of Peter's reluctance in Dichotomy -- it was completely where my own Peter head canon is. But as for Susan (YEAH THAT SOMEONE IS EXPLORING ROMANCE FOR SUSAN OTHER THAN RABADASH!) I can see OTPs or not. I happen to see Susan a bit more emotionally remote, a little more emotionally cautious and reserved and practical so that even if she feels intensely and passionately the logic too will tell her that there is never just one. I do not see these things as being exclusive either -- it does provide you with an opportunity to explore the relationships in a very mature and interesting way.

Let's assume her first, in Narnia, is an OTP. He (or she) is now long, long dead. Susan eventually finds someone who she loves in Spare Oom. Does she love that person as much as the Narnian OTP -- no. But first I think Susan will herself recognize that she's probably romanticizing it a bit and will not judge harshly her future partners for their failure to measure up to a hazy romantic ideal, even if she does feel that Narnian relationship is the most important one she will ever have. Second there is her Spare Oom partner, who might very well be content with all that Susan is willing to give. This is a partner who takes the compassionate and long view -- who recognizes that there is a lot tied up in her recollections of that other person and who is sympathetic and still loves her and is very happy with the considerable love and support she does give. Is it perfect and OTP? No. But is it very, very good? Yes. Does it make them both happy? Yes.

In sum, I think there are excellent ways to explore this in character and I am really looking forward to it.

[snitchnipped.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the thoughts!

I've thought about this some more, and sobered up a bit (cheap, cheap wine), and I think there's two points I'm kind of hung up on.

But first, yes to what you said re: Susan. My Susan is straight-up 100% more emotionally detached than what is usually out there. You described her to a T. The only other Pevensie who is as detached in my canon is Edmund, and it's just not an issue for him, in Narnia or Spare Oom. He's open to it, but doesn't ever find anything remotely close and isn't bothered. Peter, though, is very much guided by his heart and was honestly, actively looking for it in Narnia (though the others didn't know), and wanted to in Spare Oom, but had his reservations. And I have no idea on Lucy.

OK, my points...

1. I cannot decide for sure whether it's person A (oh, who the hell am I kidding, it's Peridan, though it's not happening anytime soon in my head canon) or person B who I would consider the OTP. I'm honestly torn, and it doesn't help matters that she forgets person A in Spare Oom entirely. I'm not interested in the "moving on" story, either, and technically it isn't one. At first. But, this is all kind of tied in to my second point...

2. OK, this is one of the main issues I have with TLB (which I have many of), and that is that we see the afterlife. We see people who were never alive at the same time all together in one big clump. Lewis wrote some rules on how he imagines his heaven, but didn't write all of them. What about time passage? Would people from Narnia and Spare Oom even share the same heaven?

Let's say they do... and oh, hey, dead Person A! Here, meet dead Person B! I hope you boys get along!

In any other fandom, it's not an issue because it's just not on the table. In real life it's not even on the table, 'cause, hey, we just don't know, people decide upon their own beliefs and go from there. There's no universal knowledge of what happens after death.

But in Lewis' world(s) we do know. My logical little mind could wrap around things so much better if, when they passed through the stable door, we never heard or saw anything of what happened. It just doesn't compute for me for A and B to ever, ever meet. Why? Because there IS judgement in Lewis' True Narnia. We see it when they slam Susan. UGH.

Rambly and religious, but these are my hangups, with my own personal views probably tainting things a bit. And the only reason why I do have the hang up is because in my head Susan eventually does remember Narnia, after she's already emotionally invested in B, who is pretty much the catalyst for her remembering. She accidentally moved on without realizing until it's too late. Which is not entirely a new concept, hence my fear of falling into some trope. And no, Person B is not just Peridan reincarnated because their lives would overlap for all blip of a second...though it would solve a lot of problems if B was.

And this is all silly, because I don't even know if I will ever write that story, but it does help shape Susan and her thoughts in Fuel to Fire, in small, indirect ways. Even if it's just a line or two.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Peridan. Yes, yes, give us your take on Peridan and Susan. As for the how does everyone all get along in Aslan's Country? Errr, communal living, multi-partnered, and orgies? I'm only half joking -- as it is paradise of sorts, isn't it all going to work out, in some idealistic, romantic, not realistic lovely way. Do you need to address the hereafter? I totally understand how you want to have clear in your head where Susan ends up, because then you plant things along the way. I also love the idea that it is love with B which transforms Susan. You don't want that to be diminished because that is such a powerful thing -- that it is love here that allows her to remember love there as well. I don't know who B is, but I like him her or her a lot already.

[snitchnipped.livejournal.com]

Ha! Well, I would think in paradise, orgies and all, then they would have half a mind to LAY OFF SUSAN and STOP JUDGING HER! They might actually end up enjoying company and what she brings to the table, if you catch my drift!!

Ahem.

Now, who said anything about it being love with B that transforms her? ;-) Oh, I'm sure that's part of it, maybe it's what breaks the ice of it all. I think she slips back somewhat on her own accord, rather by accident, really... and finds herself in the situation of loving two people at once out of nowhere, and then feelings of mourning rushing to the surface that had been so deeply buried for so long. And whether to reconcile all that and how to do it. I'm actually more invested in the story around it happening then the actual theme itself, if that makes any sense! But I do have to justify it all somehow, hence my questions.

And no, I don't need to address the hereafter at all, really. It's just me trying to understand the big picture before getting into the nitty-gritty work. I'm afraid I could never be the type of writer who releases a chapter at a time and work my way through chronologically. I'll have the last chapter written before I finalize the third paragraph in the first chapter. I learned that from the first one... I wrote the tops and tails first and wrote to the middle on both scenes, simultaneously. This next one is even more jumbled... the most complete scenes are the 11th and 15th... out of 23!

Thank you for your responses, rth! I can go around in circles in my head all day long, so it's nice to have people to bounce off of...